| Public
Image Limited and America hardly seemed made for each other. Yet having
successfully defied Britain's star caste systems and ugly myth makers,
earlier this year, PiL suddenly decided, to take on the world's grossest
rock and roll machinery at their own game. Who came out on top depends
on who's doing the scoring.
Despite their rigid
no-tour policy, they compromised themselves a little by agreeing to
a nine date schedule spread across a month and the breadth of the US.
The manoeuvre was set up to ease the release of Second Edition by Warner
Brothers on an American public, whose belated interest in punk / new
wave - with whom PiL are no doubt associated - meant taking The Clash
to their hearts.
From this side of the
Atlantic, we got an odd view of a sudden display of business acumen,
as seen through the perceptions of bemused America. Firstly, there was
the spectacle of the concerts themselves: wild and strange affairs that
John Lydon and Keith Levene mocked and ridiculed with their refusal
to get drawn into the performing routine, while the humane existing
axis of Wobble and Atkins, more concerned for the audience, tried to
establish a sense of order. Secondly, there came a spate of solo Lydon
interviews, a surprising departure from the corporate press meetings
we're used to here. Things didn't appear to be as solid as they once
were.
America proved to be a cathartic
experience for PiL. It was a test of strength that shook them up considerably,
polarising certain aspects of their make-up, destroying forever other
ideals and aims. 'What America amounts to is that we don't ever wants
to gigs again,' reports a fraught Keith Levene, 'and we definitely don't
want to be a rock and roll band because of it. About two the gigs were
good, and all the others were just hell, you know. And sometimes we
ended up by abusing the audience by playing rinky-dink tunes and they
didn't know the difference. Other times we just did our set and it was
awful. That was America really - all they want his rock and roll stuff.'
Closely following their return
home came rumours of PiL's accelerating demise. Martin Atkins, drummer
of nine months standing, announced his departure. He intimated, too,
that Wobble was no longer happy with the corporation.
'When it comes to members
of PiL,'says Levene, 'Martin Atkins is no longer with us. But he was
never part of PiL, he was just like, a hired drummer, and as we won't
be playing live ever again, we no longer need one. As for the rest of
PiL, it consists of me, John, Jeannette Lee, Dave Crowe and Wobble.
. um at the moment. It's just, like, as a thing PiL is internally changing.
We hope the advantage of the public and us ...
'Just before story broke
of Atkins' split, Levene had invited NME to talk - at a guess about
the Corporation's shaky state. He wanted to talk alone. This in itself
was novel, as he always appeared to be the least talkative at their
corporate gatherings. As I waited last week in Virgin's press office,
a press officer dealt deftly with a sudden influx of calls from news
editors with a scent of Atkins' departure. Levene arrived late and extremely
agitated, looking deathly white. He apologised, saying he'd been up
all night toying with a new synthesiser system. We adjourned to a quieter
room and made three unsuccessful attempts to start a conversation ,the
last one going 40 minutes before Levene decided he was too inarticulate
carry on. More agitated than ever, he called PiL filmmaker Jeannette
Lee to remind himself why he wanted to talk in the first place.
'Yes, hmmm, huh huh, yes.
Yes, I've told him that. Not yet. . . '
More relaxed, he replaced
the receiver and after a brisk walk to a new office we started again,
this time successfully. Contrary to Levene's legendary 'difficult' behaviour,
he opened up on almost everything. He spoke evasively about PiL's ongoing
'internal changes'. As intimated earlier, letters from abroad indicated
that PiL were not as united as they once been - for instance - the Lydon
solo interviews and now Levene's request to speak alone.
'I'm glad you brought that
up,' says Levene, finally calming down, 'It wasn't like that. A few
weeks before we did the US tour, John and me went over to do some promotion
and did some 20 to 25 interviews together, but when the press came out
it was all John Lydon, right. And that hurt my feelings. I don't care
about the star aspect, it just bugged me. It was like John knows everything.
He doesn't like it either. There's nothing wrong between me and John
- we're really together. The reason I asked to do this interview,' he
explains, 'was because I'd never done one alone, and I just thought
I'd like to, you know, talk about music, talk about me a bit more.'
'The thing is, what they
PiL are doing now, apart from Dave and Jeannette's thing, what John
wants to do and what I want to do are similar, so talking about me is
like talking about me and John. I just wanted to put the points over
because John won't talk at length. He gets into 'you either like it
or you don't buy it,' whereas I am more interested into answering questions
at length.'
Evidently Wobble by lack
of reference to him and through biting criticisms, isn't in favour with
Levene at of moment. His position is rendered even cloudier by Lydon
and Levene's imminent departure to the States without him to work on
movie soundtrack from Michael Woodstock Wadleigh, while Wobble apparently
will in Europe pursuing solo projects. The release of his album 'The
Legend Lives On - Jah Wobble' also incurred the guitarist's wrath, principally
for its alleged use of rhythms that had been discarded by PiL, and that
Levene wanted (them) to stay that way. In his view, PiL means total
commitment, and anything released would appear under corporate heading
with the full knowledge of the others.
'We can all do solo work,
yeah, but it comes under PiL, not Jah Wobble. We always knew that Wobble
was making the record, but we didn't know anything about it, so I don't
see that it connects with PiL at all - whereas I see any the stuff I
do as always connecting with PiL. The thing that Wobble did was a mercenary
act. I didn't like him using backing tracks from PiL that I didn't want
people to hear. I don't personally like his record at all, but Wobble
thinks it's a masterpiece which, if the people don't pick up on it now,
they will later - he even compared it to Van Gogh somehow!'
A current persona non-grata
he maybe, but, I felt that Wobble's album was quietly understated, likeable
affair, with a few outstanding tracks, like the earlier single 'Dan
McArthur' - which even Levene concedes is good. It's difficult to imagine
it's good nature causing so much offence. There must be something deeper
at the root of Wobble and Levene being at loggerheads. The guitarist
points to Wobble's behaviour in America; apparently he was getting sucked
into the rock and roll routine of giving the kids an encore, because
they paid their money. Yet, at the same time, according to Levene, he
would say he was fed up with playing 'Public Image' to get the kids
going.
'I said to him: 'Were you
doing that?' That didn't occur to me ever,' asserts Levene 'I never
thought we'd do this to get them going, this to get them satisfied and
this to get them off. Never. It was always a totally open situation.
Apparently at the LA
gigs, I was walking around without my guitar on and I did not notice
for six or seven minutes. I was just shouting and talking to the audience,
yeah. At other times I'd fling food at them - it was always a totally
open situation.
With all this talk alluding
to Wobble's misdemeanours, and at other points to his exclusion, I wonder
whether PiL would exist without one its present component parts.
'Hang on, let me think about
this. It's a funny question....' he hesitates. 'The way I see it, quite
honestly, is if Dave, Jeannette, me or John or anyone left PiL. I just
see us as one. I don't know ask me that question again and I'll give
you an answer.'
Okay, do you think that PiL
would split if any one of it's present members left?
'Yes I do,' he answers categorically.
'If anyone one of us left then PiL would no longer to exist. Yeah.'
If that is the case, I hope
any rifts are quickly healed.
Levene's commitment is undoubtedly
total, so what does he demand of fellow members?
'Honesty, total honesty.
And I get it from everyone apart from Wobble.'
Oh no!...
Let's change the subject.
PiL were formed in 1978 by Levene and Lydon, two survivors from savoury
punk experiences, with Jah Wobble, the then non-musician, defining their
sound with his highly inventive, sonorous bass lines. Created as a healthy
antidote to rock and roll excess, the three, with early drummer Jim
Walker established themselves as an independent corporation. Making
records was supposed be one of their functions. Levene was an early
member of The Clash. The excitement of his first punk band was only
temporary.
'All I knew at the time
was I really wanted to be in a band. We really fired at the time, me
and Mick Jones (Strummer hadn't arrived yet.) We had a good thing, but
Mick was always rock and roll Mick. I didn't realise then just how much
I resented rock and roll. In the end it was either Mick or me. Any number
I got together they didn't really understand, so I eventually I left
and they really wanted me to go. But The Clash isn't really my roots.
It's like the same thing happened to Eno and Roxy Music, happened to
me and The Clash. They just weren't me, as you can see from where they've
gone. Compare PiL and The Clash now, and you can see the difference
right?'
His distrust of rock and
roll isn't directed at the originals, but those who continue to repeat
them today. Citing his early tastes as The Rolling Stones, he followed
rock's developments through 'the fill your head with rock' period of
The Nice and Cream, believing in it's importance right up until Mark
Bolan turned commercial in the early '70s.
'That's when bands all became
the same, and it got very boring. Funny thing was that I never realised
that first that rock - The Rolling Stones - all came from black music,
the blues. And I really came to hate all those 50s Chuck Berry riffs.
I love it for what it was, but all the rock and rollers I know like,
ex-Rich Kid Glen Matlock and all that lot, makes me ill. They are all
so into that and think that it's so important - if only they'd fucking
get away from it, into something that is important.....
'My personal thing has never
come from black music, and I'd hate to be involved with the blues or
anything. I never get the blues. I might get down, but the blues haven't
got anything to do with me, right? When I left The Clash, I joined a
band called The Quick Spurts and I told them that if I could amputate
their little fingers I would stay with them, because I hate all that
twelve bar shit, you know?'
PiL consciously and deliberately
avoided the usual rock and roll paths. It meant, says Levene, de-learning
rock guitar, which he hated so much anyway. Wobble's presence was integral
to the process; not been able to play, he would invent his own bass
lines for Levene to work from, and additionally he wouldn't know whether
Levene was playing the 'right' thing anyway. The results of 'First Edition'
album were marked, but at the point the band still seemed to be relying
heavily on each other, which meant that riffs were often sustained too
long and without enough of variation.
'Metal Box' though as justification
of the PiL approach. By this time, Levene, Wobble and Lydon had grown
sufficiently confident in their own abilities to stray away from each
other. Levene would come in at glancing tangents to Wobble's bobbing
bass, shunning heavy chording and extensive soloing for a more exhilarating,
rapier thin sound that would whip its way around the murk quite brilliantly.
The effects are still liberating in their freshness, despite the plethora
of guitarists who have since adopted Levene's guitar-as-sound method.
Commenting on the progression,
Levene says 'Metal Box was an example of me getting into sound more
and John getting into the mixing desk more; which meant therefore more
experimentation in the studio, using it like a mechanical synthesiser
almost. On their first album we had the numbers and recorded them with
as much bass and treble as possible and with as little rock and roll
as we could get away with. With Metal Box we had the numbers but this
time we got into producing them as well.'
As D.A.F have correctly pointed
out, instrumentation has much to do with present music patterns as the
technicians who use them. PiL have fortunately, thus far, avoided falling
back onto them. As to the future, Levene has almost dispensed with the
guitar altogether, forsaking it for synthesisers. Though the PiL synth
room has apparently always been the showcase of PiL's South London base,
they're now following through more seriously the experiments began on
Metal Box, to which Lydon contributed to the orchestral parts of Swan
Lake.
'It was great to watch him
do it, because he did it totally out of tune to the rest of the track,
yet they were just fucking great and so important to it.' Levene smiles.
But haven't the pitfalls
of electronic pop be made only too apparent by the limitations of already
run into by the currently successful exponents of the style?
'I don't know the limitations
that you're talking about. It's like the rock and roll guitar thing
that I've broken away from. It's like all those fucking people and Eno,
and I hope I don't end up sounding like either of them. But it's very
hard if you've got a string synthesiser or moog, not to end up sounding
a bit like Eno. He didn't established patterns, but he definitely broached
new barriers very early on no. No one yet has done anything else different
from him - as far as I can see.'
Much to Lydon's chagrin,
Eno is increasingly influential on Levene's outlook. Not only for what
he's done in rock, but also for a shared interest in functional and
mood musics. Surprisingly to some, including me, Levene considers Metal
Box to be mood music, whereas I'd consider even those tracks that sound
superficially easy, like Chant and No Birds Do Sing, too turbulent to
take passive role of when it's playing. Levene thinks otherwise.
'I think that's where people
get PiL wrong, because the thing is, I know when you initially hear
it, it just sounds like very fucking heavy and intense, yeah, but if
you sort of introduce yourself to it then you realise it's the ultimate
mood music.'
Eh? Please explain. . . .
'People don't realise there's
thirty-two levels of different things you can get off in PiL music -
like, if you listen to 'Death Disco' three times you think it's a good
disco track, but in this if you listen to it thirteen times, you think
fucking hell, there's a whole spectrum of stuff that you can draw from
it, PiL's music doesn't meet the eye or ear on first appearance or listening.'
Director Michael Wadleigh
recognised it's various levels, claims Levene. 'Metal Box was presented
to him along with others from the Warner's catalogue as possible contenders
for a soundtrack to his upcoming, as yet unnamed, movie about the relationships
and similarities between wolves and Red Indians - their outsider sensibilities,
pack hunting, instinctive behaviour. Picking up on Metal Box, he contacted
PiL.
'I met loads of guys in America
who spoke about PiL, but he was the only one who knew what he was talking
about,' says Levene, 'It was a very interesting what he was saying.
He had a lot of respect for us, and he's the only one who could pick
up on those thirty-two levels of moods I was talking about earlier;
he could pinpoint and talk about them on certain tracks - and I knew
what he was talking about because I made it. He offered us a third of
the soundtrack and I hope we can impress him enough that we can do it
all. He wants us in our music to possibly find sounds for what a wolf
sees and smells when it sees a human and so on. We might just end up
doing a vocal sounds through John and treating them. John's really into
it being dance music, but the good thing is that it's not obviously
mood music, it's, like, down to the listener - it doesn't have to be
mood music, if you're not in the mood for it.'
But what is it about muzak
that fascinates him?
I've always been into Wimpey
(sic) Bar music, Golden Egg music, you know? You got all those musicians
who're probably technically brilliant, creating an amazing juxtaposition
of feeling. It's just incredible, you don't know where it comes from,
you know. I was going to make an album of music called 'Music for Wimpey
(sic) Bars'. There's a certain thing about it, I don't know what, but
I'd definitely expect to hear that sort of thing in a space capsule.
The whole idea, the whole thing of doing mood music, is so important
because it's there and so hard to avoid. I'm not just into rock, I've
got all these moods and feelings and they've just got to be out - out.
That's why I'm definitely into doing film soundtracks. . . '
Now no longer a band of such,
more a Corporation, the added emphasis on sound and vision is designed
to bring PiL's other members into their creative process. Dave Crowe
(their part time accounts man, photographer, etc) will be helping Levene
construct a multipurpose studio for recording, filming and video, the
ultimate dream being, for PiL to put out video albums made by themselves
and Jeannette Sounds like a bit of a dream, Maybe?
'It's not even an idyllic
set-up, it's realistic. It doesn't just mean pictures of the group playing
music, it's just bullshit doing that. But we're redirecting our concentration
onto sound and vision - vision especially - because going round as a
pop band playing live seems to be a communication to the wrong people.'
Sometimes talking to Levene,
and Wobble too for that matter, sounds like a conversation with a publicity
blurb for a particularly zippy firm, the way all those saleable catchphrases
roll off the tongue. Obviously with the seeds of the Corporation concept
planted, those cute little slogans sprout easily, as do convenient hooks
vaguely queasy, callous explanations for individuals' sudden departure,
particularly their long string of drummers.
And if the PiL Corporation
sometimes sounds like a retreat from reality, they'd probably argue
that it was a strategic one, allowing them time to gather forces and
ideas for their collective assault on Virgin and their future outlets.
Levene believes that their markedly different approach will no longer
work against them with their parent company, although he had earlier
complained of them cutting PiL's next recording advanced by half. So
the Corporation is now looking for additional ways of financing itself
outside the record industry.
'I am thinking about getting
money from companies like to ITT, if it's possible,' states Levene.
I'd rather be financed by them than a record company, because I don't
necessarily want my money to make an album, but as a facility for s
form of creative output.'
What about ITT's dubious
involvement with the CIA and other shady activities?
'We can't do anything about
them, so I just like the idea of getting money from them, perhaps draining
them of some money they might spend on arms or whatever. It's a bit
cynical. But it's important to check things out. I mean Warner Brothers
ain't my ultimate company. I am not interested in politics,' contends
Levene, though. 'I don't like talking about politics at all. Maybe I
don't understand enough to talk about them. There's party politics and
people politics. The first doesn't interest to me, they're just different
amounts of bullshit to me. People politics are important though, but
for people are not together enough.
Hence the formation of organisations.
'Hence the formation of PiL,'
he ripostes. 'Our politics were not to have middlemen, in the form of
managers, producers, artistic directors, secretaries. Whatever. Hence
we run our own affairs. Like, PiL were always a limited company, and
the idea was for it to be more of corporate thing than a band thing.'
How does it take to business
dealings?
It scares me sometimes that
we might lose PiL, or be put inside for tax. I worry about it, maybe
because my old man's Jewish. My mum isn't, nor am I, but maybe I inherited
worrying from my dad. John doesn't worry about it at all, he just lives
through it. But I want to do the business side of things, so I worry
- I'll learn to get over it.'
Lack of management caused
PiL a few problems in the States, where they found themselves confronting
the record biz bureaucracy of myriad small departments like artistic
direction and artist development, all with the preconceived ideas of
how rock and roll should be run.
'It's just terrible,' moans
Levene. 'You're trying to tell them your ideas and all they say is 'you're
gotta get a manager'! We say we want to talk directly to record company,
and they're still going on, 'he doesn't have to be called a manager'.
It's really flogging a dead horse. We got this guy from artist development,
on the road, right, supposedly watching us develop and the only development
that I got from the tour was not to tour or have anything to do with
rock and roll any more. That's how much I developed. Rock and roll alters
people's perceptions. It's a two-way thing. Groups are given great expectations
by record companies and are eventually let down badly. And the public
hankering after stars, treat musicians as such; and soon neither side
knows how to act. It's a real drag though,' says Levene. 'But I can
understand new bands coming up and wanting to be stars. I understand
their motivations and values, but if they realised it was mostly illusion
they wouldn't get deluded, and probably wouldn't have formed the band
in the first place. PiL are the nearest thing I wanted to get in being
in a band, and now we not touring it's everything I always wanted it
to be. I really think the band as such is the old-fashioned part of
it. You know, people should learn from history and it's not like that
any more.
Late on in our conversation,
Levene had completely recovered from the nervous extra-helpfulness which
led the inarticulate beginning. Even when we were having problems communicating,
it wasn't so much from his reputedly difficult, as in moody, nature,
as his desire to express fully what he was saying. Stories of his surliness,
especially with one time drummer, Richard Dudanski, cloud his reputation.
Like the time soon after Dudanski joined, when PiL played a surprise
gig at Manchester's Factory Club, which accelerated Dudanski's disappearance.
'I'd said: 'Let's do the
gig', right? replies Levene. 'And then I realised that Dudanski hardly
knew any of the numbers and we had a row which didn't have anything
to do with anything apart from speed paranoia on Dudanski's part. But
it wasn't that I wanted the gig and the rest didn't. Like, I'm friends
with Dudanski now. I am difficult to work with, but those I do work
with understand me. So's John - we all fucking difficult to work with.
We're temperamental, but because we know each other, it's not a barrier.
They'll just laugh at me being difficult, and John calls me a yapping
dog. I'm known as Bad Baby and John, I call him Big Baby. That's because
in the studio if things aren't right, I'm telling him that some things
no good, you know?'
How about PiL's attitude
to their public? The feedback they've received is mixed. Some people
consider them Johnny Rotten's new backing group, others as a joke. Many
are still be intimidated by them, both as individuals and because of
their unconventional approach. Then there's the live Stranger In A Strange
Land theory that audiences are easily manipulated.
'It surprises me that people
would rather be scared of us than find us great for getting into new
things, making original music.' says Levene. 'They just don't seem to
pick up on that. It's like anything new, angry and truthful and realistic
gets avoided. Capital Radio would avoid us. It's just like special programming
to keep the fucking morons quiet, but we're not morons and I don't think
people are morons . . . though I'm changing my opinion.
Why?
'The general lack of feedback
that PiL have had. Just the way people are in general.'
He later modifies this.
'I'm observing people all
the time. I won't say I like them, but with every individual I'm totally
open, until I kind of realise where they're at, and then I decide whether
to give myself to them or not. I don't mind being hurt by people, but
I won't let an arsehole hurt me like I used to. It used to really fuck
me up. I don't feel a bighead about it, I but I'm more open to people
than anyone in PiL. I'd be the last person to say 'oh that fucking moron',
you know.'
Artists are by nature selfish
and they'll go to extraordinary lengths to protect their personal vision
from outside interference. An artist will only work in a group or organisation
as long as his form of expression isn't compromised, and if he can't
get his own way, he'll act ruthlessly to obtain it. Even so, when Levene
cynically refers to Martin Atkins as a 'former employee' of the PiL
organisation and talks hatefully of present member Jah Wobble, we outsiders
can only look on uneasily at his seemingly callous behaviour, and perhaps
worry how such talk will affect PiL's future, despite Levene's assurances
of their stability.
Yet without that essential
selfishness, PiL wouldn't have come anywhere near this far; their music
depends on the brave juxtaposition of their individual extremes, only
working because each member is fully realising his own ideas without
hindering the others. But it would be disastrous if they refuse to accommodate
each other under the collective PiL umbrella.
PiL so far have been a vital
independent force in modern music. The Corporation re-shapen to take
in movie and video-making will place even greater strain on their emotional
and material resources; I hope they've the strength to support their
additional ventures, as many of us have invested too much for them to
give up on us now. |